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Designer Genes
An interview with production designer Gary Wissner
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| Gary Wissner |
I've been working as a production designer on various shorts and feature films in Vancouver since 1996. Prior to my professional career, I studied film and theater arts at two prominent local institutions. During this four-year period of film analysis and production, not even one day of instruction focused on the role of the production designer-remarkable, considering the production designer is one of the three most influential contributors to the look of a film (along with the director and cinematographer). Setting out to research literature devoted to this "mysterious" art, I found very few textbooks, articles or interviews. Two very good texts are By Design by Vincent LoBrutto [LoBrutto contributed MovieMaker's recent cover story on Stanley Kubrick-ed.] and Production Design in Contemporary American Film, by Beverly Heisner. To this day, though, I am amazed at how few People actually know what a production designer really does. Clearly, fledgling designers need more resources and words of wisdom. At only 34 years old, Gary Wissner has already amassed an impressive slate of production design credits including Last Man Standing, I Know What You Did Last Summer and 8MM. He has also art directed films such as Hoffa, Wyatt Earp and the brilliant Se7en. I had the good fortune of speaking with Wissner in Vancouver where he was designing his latest film, Detox, starring Sylvester Stallone. He most impressed me with the confidence and focus he brings to his work.
Tony Devenyi (MM): When did you know you wanted to be a production designer?
Gary Wissner (GW): (Originally) I'd hoped to work on Broadway; to increase the likelihood of that, I wanted to be a scenic designer. So in 1982, I went to NYU to study theater. It wasn't until the last year that I started taking some film classes and getting involved in film production and commercials. Film was a small division within the dramatic theater school. You study acting and lighting production, but mainly for theater. NYU is very strict in their foundation teaching of theater design, art history, drawing, painting, figure drawing, etc. They give you that great basis.
MM: Have you gone back to theater or are you just working in film now?
GM: I moved to L.A. in 1987, a year after I graduated from NYU, and L.A. is not really a theater place, so I got right into drafting for commercials and film. My first job was the Country Music Awards. I was drafting for 600 bucks a week for this guy right in his living room. I remember almost blowing the whole experience because I spilled all my airbrush paint on his carpet, right below my drafting table, then stepped in it and, without knowing it, walked through his living room (big laugh).
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| Millenium (1999) |
MM: You seemed to have advanced fairly quickly.
GM: Yes, I guess so. I never really considered myself ambitious or driven. But I think in Hollywood it's not just about talent, it's about how you can work with people, how you can get along with people and how you interact with your crew. I was really lucky-I set out to try to work as an assistant with the biggest designers I could. I searched out Ida Random, Joe Nemec, the huge designers. I really learned so much from them. (Nemec) really took me under his wing. I art directed and assisted him for many years. Then I did two shows with Random and she was really involved with paint technique. It was very different from Joe. Joe was technically oriented and had art directed a lot of high-budget hardware movies himself. I just looked at these designers and emulated them and eventually really worked well with their crews and met a lot of great Hollywood talent. A lot of those guys 1 use now, like my scenic artist and my construction coordinator. It just happened. It was strange... I kind of feel like I had two breaks in design. One was when I was the art director on Another 48 Hours. The producer on it went on to direct a Stephen King film (Graveyard Shift). It was a smaller film He liked my work on Another 48 Hours and asked me, "Do you want to design this?" I was glad he did that, but I wasn't happy with advancing that quickly. I wanted to get better as an art director because it was still interesting. I knew that I wasn't going to be happy those types of horror movies, but it fell into my lap. It was a great experience, but I needed a couple more years of the biggest films I could do as an art director. So I did films as an art director (Hoffa, Wyatt Earp, Junior, Se7en), which gave me a wider range of experience, and I got a lot better at it.
Then I felt,” I’m done with art dire that was essentially it. Se7en was my last one it was an excellent way to end a career in art direction. And Se7en led to Last Man Standing because it was the same studio (New Line).
MM: I just watched Last Man Standing and found your attention to detail to be amazing.
GM: I had the best time on that. Can you imagine designing a 1931 period piece gangster epic?
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| Nicolas Cage in 8MM |
MM: Huge budget?
GM: New Line produced it, so it wasn't quite as huge a budget as you might think. It wasn't like, "Here's all the money, go ahead." They had Walter Hill. They had the huge star of course, Bruce Willis, for $16 million, I would guess. So it was probably around $50-$60 mullion.
MM: Did you build the whole town?
GM: There were a couple of towns- we did two makeovers-one of which was the old Silverado Town in Santa Fe which I had already done on Wyatt Earp with Ida Random. So I knew that town really well. But you always update. We had to repaint everything, add all this detail and redress it. And the other one was Melody Range, which was Gene Autry's old TV studio. It was a mess, so we basically spent $1 million on it. We refaced everything, built new buildings and hotels and put this black-and-white look on everything, trying to suck the color out of the whole town. We also built five soundstages worth of sets. El Paso was the home of the big desert sequence; that was a complete build.
MM: You seem to design mainly dramas.
GM: You know, it hasn't happened on purpose. I haven't decided,"I'm only going to have movies or thrillers with heavy dark looks on my resume." My wife, and my coordinator, Tembra, ask about that all the time: "Why don't you do a romantic comedy?" Or just something lighter so I'm not doing the same thing over and over. Eventually the subject matter gets to you. I do research all the time and right now we're researching crime scene photos with peoples' heads blown off to match the blood in this character's living room. You know it's only a movie, but you keep doing it year after year, and you want a change sometimes just to do something a little different. I guess Hollywood looks at your resume and says "you would be good for this certain kind of movie."
MM: Do they tend to pigeon-hole you?
GM: Yes. There are designers that only do comedies or wacky stuff like Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion. And there are people who only do action movies, Armageddon-type movies, and they won't get called for other kinds. We were joking about this with the last DP that I worked with. He was doing a lot of pizza commercials and he tried to get a hamburger commercial, and they said: "You can't shoot hamburgers. You’re a pizza specialist." (laughs) I think that somebody who looks at my resume and sees Last Man Standing, Se7en, 8MM... I'm not sure if consciously they would say he can't do My Fair Lady, for example. If you're good, you can design anything. Look at the greats like Bo Welch [see interview this issue, pg. 46-ed.], Dick Sylbert and those guys.
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| Top: A black-and-white sketch which Wissner usses before color renderings and models are created and sets are built... all in consultation with the director. Below: The final product, Last Man Standing (1996). |
MM: So what are your major influences? You're obviously interested in painting. [Wissner had painted five large canvases during his few months designing Detox, now called The Outpost, in Vancouver-ed.]
GM:Yes, I love sculpture and painting. Rodin. Francis Bacon. I have a really painterly style, so I work closely with the scenic artists. But I haven't looked to any other movie designer's work and tried to reflect it. I've always just tried to do it on my own. If there's any heavy painting research that I do, it's always been classical. I won't go back 20 years and look at a film designed by someone else and try to emulate that.
MM: But when you work on a film such as Last Man Standing, wouldn't you want to look at every western ever made?
GM: No, I didn't look at a lot of westerns. I looked at a couple of old spaghetti westerns by Sergio Leone, just because we were doing a remake. (Like Leone's A Fist Full of Dollars, Last Man Standing was a remake of Kurosawa Yojimbo.) So I wanted to get the essence of what those films were about. But when you look at the old spaghetti westerns, they actually didn't have much of a stylized theatrical look at all. I did try to re-invent the genre a bit and not just go for the typical western look, with the same geometry, styles, colors and architecture. I think that's boring. In some ways Wild Wild West (designed by Bo Welch) has reinvented the western totally. And that's where I think the designers really shine and take a genre that's been done to death. You can do it the way it's always been done, or you can just go for it. That's what we tried to do on Last Man Standing. But you have to have a DP and director who are into that.
MM: There was one particular shot in Last Man Standing-the dinner scene where they're all having pasta on silver trays... It was so unusual and beautiful...
GM: Yes, that was a great idea, thanks. I was lucky to work with a couple of great, prominent decorators for the last few years. Gary Fettis has had a couple of nominations for movies like the Godfather III, Apocalypse Now... So as a young designer, I try to surround( myself with good people. I can't do it on my own. They make you look good (laugh).
MM: What is your relationship like with set decorators?
GM: I'm very hands on. It depends on the( decorator, too. The decorator I'm working with now is kind of an up-and-comer an( younger, and doing an excellent job. I'll give him the set for a day or two, after a lot of discussions about color, texture, form and design.
MM: Do you give him detailed illustrations?
GM: I'll do conceptual boards of the sets really early on, which have everything from research to fabric samples to colors. Things I can talk about with the director to indicate, "Here's general overall world this character inhabits.' They're big collages. And from then on I gel more specific, going into detail and making illustrations. Everybody in my department has copies of all the concept boards. We’ll be able to pull a color or texture from the original concept board throughout the course of the film, which is the only way I can work, because if I don't have an overall theme from the beginning, I'm making it up as I go along. I have to have a foundation.
MM: It helps you make decisions in the future. There has to be a spine.
GM: Yes. You can never think of everything that's going to happen through the course of the film. New sets get added. Scripts change. So if you have a new bedroom set, or a new exterior building that pops up in a rewrite, you can pull from your original concept of color, architecture, style, geometry and it will fit right in.
MM: Obviously cinematographers are key elements. How do you discuss the look with them?
GM: Often the DP is not yet on (the production) really, so that's unfortunate. I cover myself a lot. I design a lot of lighting into the sets, and I think that comes from my theater background. It's nice when a DP comes on set and says something like, "Oh this guy is really into lighting." It's not that he doesn't have to light the set, but it's motivated. The practicals are in the right place and it helps him tremendously, which only makes my sets look better. In this film, Dean Semler arrived late because he was on another picture and we didn't have the money to start him soon enough. But I've been lucky in that every DP I've worked with has just been into the practicals. I just put them in. If he doesn't like one, he just turns it off. At least it's there to start with.
MM: How much have you had to fight over things like the color of a shade or the size of a lamp?
GM: Innately, I think I know what makes a good-looking set, so I don't approach it as a fight. If I'm fighting with the DP or the director or the costume designer for a look, then we're already starting on different pages. If I'm just doing what I know is right for the look of the set, they're just going to follow my footsteps. If I put a lamp shade on a desk lamp, I don't necessarily have three more to change to when the DP complains. I say, "That's the one. If you don't like it you can take it out." But the lamp shade with the wrong lamp base is not good design for me. Just to do what a DP or camera operator wants in terms of composition or lighting... it's not my style. I'm not there 24 hours a day on the set saying, "We're going to move stuff around to fill the frame the way they want to fill it." Through the course of the film they come to respect that the sets are a piece of sculpture that aren't supposed to be changed when the camera arrives. I have the director backing me up on that, because he's an artist. On this film, too, he (Jim Gillespie) is into the sets. I've had a relationship with him from other movies, (I Know Mat You Did Last Summer) so he trusts me.
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| Wyatt Earp (1994) |
MM: You mentioned that you're very "hands-on." How much time do you spend on set?
GM: I'll open every new set and I try to bring a director in the weekend before, or a couple of hours before, to walk through it. Then I kind of hang around for the first shot. I can't spend 12 hours a day there. But I check in all the time for other elements that have to do with the look, like a certain carpet that has a blood stain on it. How big is the blood stain? What color is the blood stain? How deep a red is it? Or whatever. So I'm always interacting. Lately though, I'm doing less and less, because I used to want to control everything by showing up on the set and not having anybody touch any of my stuff unless I was there. But you have to let your team make your set look better.
MM: With your team, do you do a "show and tell" (present your design concepts) for them?
GM: I actually don't do that, because I'm assuming that the on-set dresser knows exactly what he's supposed to do without me telling him. If he doesn't do that, then I find a new on-set dresser, because that's part of the reason why he's there, to preserve the look. But there's the fine line of preserving the look and changing something. I've had nightmares where on-set dressers and standby painters are at the whim of the DP, because DPs are like gods. DPs have attempted to repaint sets when I wasn't there, because they just haven't figured out how to light it. Once, I came on to a set where there was a big piece of machinery that filled the set. It was a huge, monstrous, belt-driven, cotton-shredding machine. It looked like the DP had dipped the whole thing in talcum powder. It had all this white flaky shit on it. It didn't look mean or menacing, it looked terrible. I went to the director and DP and said,” You’re going to wind-up re-shooting this once you see it in the dailies." So we shut the unit down and I brought my painters in and we repainted the piece of equipment while everybody on set stood by waiting. I think that was a case of the DP panicking. Somebody was trying to get a reflection off a piece of equipment without calling me or trying to get my help, but ended up doing something that just got him deeper and deeper into shit. He is trying to make it work, and he's on the front fines and everybody is waiting. I was a fresh eye coming in to say, "This is ridiculous. This is a major set piece." So, I have no problem shutting down a movie or shutting down a unit if there is something wrong.
MM: What's your philosophy of production design?
GM: I don't look at it as architecture. I look at it more as fantasy. It's not realty. I don't think people go to movies just to see stuff that they have in their real lives, especially when it comes to a look, environment or setting. I really try to design something that people will want to be in or want to see again. Something they haven't seen before. So even if it is a straight drama based in realty, there is always a twist that I put on it, especially with color and texture.
MM: To heighten it?
GM: Yes. Something to either motivate the characters or something that comes from the characters. I try to assign themes to the different acts of the film. I treat it as piece of theater. I don't come from architecture. I know a lot of designers who do, which is fine for their careers and that's how they approach their production design. I know architecture. I've studied architecture. I've studied the details. It's not like I don't know which cornice should go in what period building. But to me that's not what movies are about. I don't even care about that, because I know what looks good in my sets and what works for the script. I never follow rules of engineering and architecture because in film there are no rules. And the people who take chances, the filmmakers who take chances all the time, are the ones I respect.
MM: What do you do when you first get the script?
GM: The first time I get the script is usually when I'm trying to get the job or someone is trying to hire me, so I just try to find out if I'm interested in what's going on with the look or in the story. You know right away. I kind of read it quick and then I'll break it down right away. I decide if this is something I can bring myself to, my style and my whole way of working. I see who the players are, too, because when you get a script you already know who the director is, who the producer is and maybe who the star is. "Could this be a very interesting experience for maybe six months or a year of my life?" If I get the job, I will of course read it again with the intention of asking questions of the director. I write down questions and try to come up with the first instinctive ideas of characters in this environment. What does it look like? What does it feel like? I give the director a mushy conceptual. It's kind of like "design speak"(laugh). Eventually, as the movie progresses, you begin to get more structured and more detailed. You work on construction documents and get specific. Then, nine months later, I always try to bring that back to the director and say, "Remember when we talked about this slash of red that was supposed to be in this black satin? We're still doing it," because he forgets.
MM: Do you also think of design from the point of view of a filmmaker? Taking into consideration the different lenses, camera movements, etc.?
GM: Yes, and usually the director will tell me, "This is the shot that I want for this scene." So you're always designing for the shot, not just designing a set that looks cool as a sculpture or as painting. You're listening to what the director's point of view is. Detox is at, anamorphic movie, so the ceilings are 10 percent lower than they would be in real life. It forces the camera down and just expands the scene. I will design sets that will almost force the camera to be in a certain space because I start from a certain point of view or vision of what looks best.
MM: So that's how you would present your drawings to the director?
GM: Yes, I sit with an illustrator and we do sketches. From those black-and-white sketches I do models and, if I have time, get into some really beautiful color renderings that get distributed to everybody, the costume designer, the prop man, etc. I try to hold onto the conceptual boards within my own department, m with the decorator, because they have specific fabric samples on them, wallpapers and things like that. So it's a whole process, which is great because by the end of the movie, looking back on what you did nine months ago, all the stages of work, it's fascinating. I'll also try to have the color script, act one to act three, in my office showing the director the progression of how things will change or stay the same. So you can walk in and see it all in continuity, from swatches to samples, a sketch next to a sample, next to a color swatch and so on.
MM: Do you ever discuss your designs with the actors, as far as what they see for their characters?
GM: If your sets are good, the actors are appreciative because it just makes their job easier. But, conceptually, I don't talk to them at all, they're not even involved. The director's the thing with me. He's the one who hired me. He's the one I'm loyal to. He and I have a distinct vision and have had the conversations no one else has had.
MM: Obviously there are different types of directors. Some know exactly what they want. Others just say, "Give me a room, or a bar..."
GM: Yes, everybody likes to think that they know what they want. Directors don't start by saying, "Do whatever you want. "They'll think they know what they want, but they frequently don't. That's why they hired you. Certain directors, more than others, are really specific about color: "This is the red part of
the script. This is the horizontal part of the script. This is the white part of the script," while some younger ones have no clue that you can even think that way. I don't know if I like working one way better than the other way. Sometimes I don't agree with the director who knows exactly what he wants, but you have to do it anyway because he is the director. So you say, "It really would look better red than blue," and he says, "No, I want it blue!" I never fight with a director, because when you're fighting a director you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you're having a fit with the director then you haven't done your homework with him. And if everybody is hearing the fit you're having with the director, it is really too late. Have your fits in the first month when you're talking about what the concept of the film is. I start with the big picture. I don't start with the small details and show them a molding, cornice or a drape first. I present the overall idea for the look and say, “This is what my idea is. Does it fit? Or should we find a whole new idea?” And if it fits, then there is no fighting.
MM: How about dealing with the producers?
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| The Outpost (1999) formerly Detox |
GM: I've had more problems with producers than I've had with directors, because I think sometimes producers want to be involved in the creative process and they try to control it. But ultimately they can't control the director. At least they haven't been able to on any of the movies I have worked on. The director does what he/she wants to. But the producers sometimes think they can control the younger directors, or even the older directors, by going to the people that the director surrounds himself with, like production designers and DPs. Producers are often only thinking about the film from the bottom line. Which is their job-you respect it. I don't disregard the bottom line. l can't have a reputation of going over budget on every film, because producers talk. You have to be fiscally responsible without trying to please all the people all the time.
MM: Would you say that you have developed a certain style?
GM: Conceptually? Yes, I think so. I'm getting known for a painterly style. A color style. More so for paint color and texture than for architecture. I don't know if I've worked on that. It's just sort of the way it's come. I interviewed for a job a month ago and the director asked me, "Remember this scene in that movie you did? Did you paint this alley?" So he was really into paint. He noticed the paint in that alley was different than anything he'd seen before. And, of course, we had painted that alley. So getting noticed is great. It makes it worth it.
MM: What are your goals as a designer?
GM: To direct! (laughs).
MM: Seriously?
GM: Yes, I think everybody wants to direct. l don't want to direct before I become the kind of designer that I'm really happy with. I want to reach a pinnacle of design where I can say, "OK, I've reached this level, kind of what I did in art design." Maybe I'll direct and go back to design. I don't want to say, "Once I direct, I'm going to give up my design career." I think production design is about directing. It's about designing a set that works to enhance the script and get the actors in the right place. It's probably the best stepping stone to directing, after being a writer. As a crew member, I think it is better than being a director of photography because you are involved with the process much earlier. And a designer who ultimately becomes a director, like Ridley Scott, Terry Gilliam, James Cameron... the movies they do are something you've never seen before. Art directors who become directors, like Hitchcock, who was so into the art direction, can almost direct from the back seat of a limousine, because they're usually so well-prepared.
MM: It's not just about filming pretty sets.
GM: Right. Filmmaking is not just about the sets, its about the story. Design should never overshadow any part of the story; it should enhance it and be a part of it.
MM: Who are the designers you admire most?
GM: I think now the one I admire the most is Bo Welch (whose films include Wild Wild West, Men In Black, Batman Returns, Edward Scissorhands and The Color Purple). I think his choices and his wide range of work are something nobody's ever seen before.
MM: Would you ever work on a lower budget, independent film now?
GM: Yes, sure. On lower budget films, I'd even love to do wardrobe at the same time. Or second-unit directing. Or do something where you had an opportunity to visually control more of the look on a smaller film. I don't just want to do $100 million dollar movies, because you make more money or you have more money to spend. It's all about the story. I've done pilots, commercials and $60 million movies and had a great time doing them all. You find the resources to do what you want, and focus in on the look.
MM: So what do you see as the future as far as the use of computers and the digital world? Where sets don't actually exist, as in Star Wars?
GM: Yes, the virtual sets. I think everybody
has a problem with them. I don't think that they will ever take
of, because I think virtual sets are boring. I just don't think
that it works for the overall good of the film and I don't find
them more interesting or better than real sets. Yet I work on a
computer, I visualize sets on programs all the time, I do all the
computer stuff. But it's only a tool for me and it never replaces
the real thing, the real construction. I don't think it ever will.
Right now, of course, virtual sets are prohibitively expensive.
I don't think it works for the actors, either. Some directors who
don't like armies of crew members and set construction guys around
them might try to control everything through a computer screen.
For me, though, that's not what filmmaking is all about. It's not
about a computer program. It's a film. MM
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This story was published in the September/October 1999 MovieMaker Magazine. The headline was:
Designer Genes / An interview with production designer Gary Wissner
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